User talk:Cykeisme
Welcome Hi, welcome to Space Marine Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Warboss Grimskull page. Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Unknown Primarch (Talk) 12:21, 27 May 2012 Hi Cykeisme! Thanks for all the info you are adding to the game. The note that you left on ground-pound gave me pause. It is clearly correct that the conjunction 'or' should not have been used, due to the maximum damage done, but you went on to explain that (if I understand correctly) armor and normal damages are separate and that they are applied sequentially. Do you have access to the damage game code, or the actual weapon scripts? I do not, and have been writing the data just as it is collected in multiplayer. The armor/normal separation does not appear to be as clear cut as was suggested. For example, the plasma cannon: If someone has their armor stripped (any class) then a direct plasma cannon shot does 60 damage (40 health remaining). I would intepret this to be 60 'normal damage'. Ok, now against a devestator/havok who has 125 armor points, a direct blast does 120 damage (~4% shield remains). Does this mean that it also does 60 armor damage? If so, then the spill over effects are very odd. A tactical marine with 100 armor points would be expected to be left with 80 health (suffering 60 armor damage first, and then another 60 normal damage). However they are instead left with 90 health. The same situation arises with an Assault marine/raptor: with 60 points of armor, you would expect a direct shot to leave the marine with 40 health (60 armor + 60 normal). Instead they are left with 70 health, having only taken 30 points of damage! From what I can see, the plasma cannon does 120 points of damage to armor OR 60 points of damage to health. Whether this means that it does 120 points and has a penalty to health, or it does 60 normal points and has some bonus to armor, the stiuation in the game seems to be as follows: Apply 120damage to armor: if armor was >120 points damage is applied as normal. If armor was at <120 points, then bring the armor to zero. Whatever damage remains only applies to the health as half. There are definetly other weapons that do different damages to health or armor. For example bolt pistols only apply about 28 damage to sheilds, but do 40 damage to health. Again I do not have any source code, I am just recording observations in game. Any insight you have would be very welcome! Thanks for all the help! Dlatrex (talk) 00:56, September 29, 2013 (UTC) Yes sir, or ma'am! You can find me as SABADO_GIGANTE on PC/Steam Dlatrex (talk) 21:40, October 7, 2013 (UTC) Awesome! I love getting the the actual source as it (should) be more reliable than the labs. Yes, I am guilty of spending entierly too much time taking measurements and observations. Scientist by training, and it just bleeds over into my hobbies ;-). I put the game on my wife's laptop and just sat together punching each other and recording the results. I'm guilty of writing almost any of those hard figures, although I was not always logged onto my account =P There are some assumptions I had to make; the way plasma weapons are calculated obviously consistently lead me astray. The speeds/distances assume a certain scale for the astartes models (2.2meters) and should more accurately be listed in "number of astartes per second" =) I am mostly incapable when it comes to actual programming, or file manipulation, although doing similar things for other video games (doom, duke nuke, etc.) I can usually gain a mediocre understanding of the config files once displayed. I'd love to play anytime you see me around, so don't hesitate to message me! Dlatrex (talk) 18:16, October 8, 2013 (UTC) So, I neglected to take something into account with the Lascannon Headshot re: Armor damage. The Impenetrable is able to influance both the shields and the health damage suffered. Using double shields, I was able to show that the lascannon took off 225 on headshot, and would move deeper into health if the shields were previously damaged. It's true you can still survive one with impenetrable: 100 health -> 142 health and 60 armor -> 85, for a total of 227-228 equivilant health. Thus he lives. But if I remove all the shields, and boost the impenetrable with combat stims, it will STILL kill him by taking all his health. It's a flat damage. So far the only weapons I am finding with obvious armor only damage are melee weapons: Power Axe, Dreadnought attack, body charge, death from above, etc. All of the guns seem to do either flat damage, or damage with a modifier when applied to armor (i.e. x2 for plasma, or x 0.5-0.8 for bolter weapons). The one exception is the charged plasmacannon. I CAN show that it does a normal + armor damage distribution. It does 150 normal damage and is surviable by a few cominations (Impenetrable ASM + Combat stims, or Master Crafted Combatstims + Tac marine). I cannot calculate the damage done to shields as the best I can get is 350 shields (Iron halo games settings x 2) and it STILL flat out kills him. I was also able to measure the Dreadnought's meltagun doing 400 damage! O_O Dlatrex (talk) 15:04, October 24, 2013 (UTC) Hi Cyke! So my hard drive decided to crash, and put me on an unexpected hiatus. My new hardware should come in by the weekend, so maybe I can get back and running (and testing!) then. Your hypothesis about the other charged plasma weaponry makes sense, and absolutely I would like to test them. It was easy to evaluate the two-part components for the charged Plasma Cannon: A fully charged shot would leave a tactical marine which had Combatstims+Master Crafted with 10% health. And this was true if it had Full armor, or Zero armor. So, there was clearly a two part component. The Armor damage oblitterated the Armor, (and JUST the armor) and then the remainder normal damage (150) was applied to health, with a 40% reduction due to the stims. That aside, it will STILL ourright kill a Iron Halo Devestator with a combat stim and X2 armor setting. So at the very MINIMUM it must do at least 150 Normal + 325 armor damage. The 150 is reduced to 112.5 by the stims: so that's at most 12.5 normal damage which can be applied to armor. If we assume that it has the plasma vs. sheilds multiplier of x2 then that's 25 damage on the armor, leaving 325 that has to be destoryed as well. I'm sorry for how I wrote about the LasCannon. I was trying to explain how the 'apparent' health and armor for an ASM is improved when Impenetrable is used. It might have been simpler to say 160 total points (100 health + 60 armor) can absorb 228.5 damage with Impenetrable (70% damage from all incomming ranged), which means that our lascannon headshot of 225 will leave the player with 2-3% health. Survivable, even without stims. However, there is no armor component: if you do even 3% damage to the player's shield before the headshot he flat out dies; there is no 'armor only' component to absorb that extrat couple of percentage points. I should have caught this before when you first showed me it was survivable for the ASM!! My next pet project is to try to figure out the damages and healths in Exterminatus. Some of this is very difficult. Those bloody orks don't want to play nicely... Dlatrex (talk) 16:13, November 6, 2013 (UTC) Yep! You were right: just confirmed that the Plasma Gun charged shot does 75+ 75, and the plasma pistol does 50 normal +75 armor. Great instinct. Dlatrex (talk) 16:17, November 9, 2013 (UTC) So, we have another metric to test: Range of Fall-off. I found it accidentally with the heavy bolter back in the day, but many if not all ranged weapons seems to drop off with distance. I've been able to get lascannons to go from 100 down to 85 damage Bolt gun from 22 -> 17 Bolt pistol from 40 -> 32 Stalker bolter 40 -> 27 (armor) 100-> 70 (head shot health). The lascannon seems to start around 50 meters as well. I can see that bolt pistol/plasma pistol seem to suffer as well, but I couldn't measure them with the setup I had =P Something for when we have too much free time! Dlatrex (talk) 03:09, November 18, 2013 (UTC) Yeah, I remember seeing those fall-off figures when I poached the wikicode for the "weapons stats" box. I suspected it existed, but given how different they can make single player and multiplayer weapons, I had no idea if it translated directly. I do not even remember how/why I found that info for the Heavy Bolter originally. I think I was interested just because it seemed to take so much longer to kill at range even when I was landing my hits =P So yes, it does seem to effect most ranged weapons if bolters, lascannon and possibly plasma are showing the difference. My lab setup was terrible; the wife's laptop was running out of battery, I had a loadout that didn't have las stabilizers, and and forgot to bind the zoom key! =P Fail on my part. The pistols are so inaccurate at that distance, that it was hard to land the shots AND have the enemy kill them before the health regen was kicking in. you and I together should easily be able to do it. Measuring distance is more tricky: it is easy on the Waste Management, because there are tiles on most of the ground that appear to be 2 meters square. Unfortunately there are not that many straight open shots because of all the walls. I was measuring it based in Distance travled via ASM Ground pound which is ~15meters on Manufactorium, since it has that nice straight shot. If we take the time, we can scale one part of the floor's skin (via screenshots etc) and measure out certain landmarks. As to HOW the damage falls of, the graph you showed seems to be consistent with what I'm seeing. I could get a gradual increase in damage as I walked the guy closer to the shooter. Now it's possible it is still in set 'bands' or steps. In fact, when I first was looking at CoD weapons I thought they worked that way! (see this http://callofduty.wikia.com/wiki/Tac-45). If we really want to be over acheivers we will probably need to have a few measurements for different levels of fall-off. Heh. Our work is never done! Dlatrex (talk) 17:17, November 18, 2013 (UTC) Hey Cyke. Two quick updates #1. I've looked at some of the damage SS, but it's giving me all sorts of fits. It's become hard to figure out exactly what fraction of pixels (i.e. the starting and ending points) the display is calculating. The different shots do not seem to line up with each other (for example: 2 shots =/= 1 shot x 2). This is complicated by trying to calibrate it, so I will probably have to calibrate a couple more and see if that can correct it. Right now it looks like the first hit takes off 13-20 more pixles than the subsequent hits, but it is NOT the same across the weapons! >_< Funny; with the kill report, the first hit seems to SUBTRACT damage instead of add it. Lol. #2 I'm changing the Dreadnought to read 'approx 2500 health'. I think this is pretty accurate, and has good line up with melta guns (11+ hits) Lascannon (4 = 16%) and Killing Blow Thunder Hammer. That said, the armor clearly has WILD modifiers for all sorts of weapons, so knowing the absolute health doesn't really make as much of a difference as weapon performance =P Dlatrex (talk) 19:36, November 25, 2013 (UTC) Ok: here is the collection of screen shots we took: http://spacemarine.wikia.com/wiki/File:Damages_Screen_shots.jpg Dlatrex (talk) 02:29, November 27, 2013 (UTC) Hmmm.. we could get 25% armor left from a ground pound or a Devestator Boot stomp. You could use the combat Knife to get 60% left The plasma pistol should be 30% at close range, so that will give us 70% also. If I see you online tonight (morning for you) we can crank it out really quickly. Dlatrex (talk) 17:14, November 27, 2013 (UTC) Ok... so I added the new pictures to my profile page. Success! The other measures helped me codify the start and stop points, as well as codify the pixle count. The health bars are 320 pixles = 100%. I have a little pink graphic to show on the 50% calibration bar exactly how it is measured. So with that in mind these are how the guns fare: GUN | Pixels | (Damage) | %Change Stalker Bolter: 189 (28) 70% Plasma Gun: 144 (45) 75% Kraken Bolts: 43 (13.5) 77% Bolt Pistol: 69 (22) 77% Heavy Bolter: 64 (20) 81% Lascannon: 274 (85) 85% Plasma Pistol: 96 (30) 100% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By far the most interesting to me is that the Plasma Gun suffers from distance scaling, but the Plasma Cannon and Plasma Pistol apparently do not! Odd. The only one we don't have is the standard Bolter. D'oh. If we wanted to over achieve we could do the Reaper Autocannon, Assault Cannon, and Storm Bolter (all would be very hard!), as well as headshots/ health comparison. Vengance launcher/Melta Gun are non applicable. Dlatrex (talk) 03:22, November 28, 2013 (UTC) Oops. I probably need to write a disclaimer on the Killing Blow page. The damages for the killing blow figures were tested in exterminatus against Orcs. I have no doubt that against another player it does 2000 (or more!) damage. I have been unable to have any combination of wargear allow a character survive the Killing Blow direct hit in multiplayer. I assumed that the perk is just scaled down against NPC's of which it looks like the dreadnought is flagged as one. =P We can test the Plasma pistol again to make sure that I didn't screw up, but right now it looks like it does not have dropoff. Next up: distances!! Dlatrex (talk) 19:53, November 29, 2013 (UTC) Guess who got access to the weapons source codes?? =) Following your recommendations I did visit Relic Forums, and I've been able to stumble through their existing tutorials as to how to 'start modding' the game. That's at least let me able to extract and read the files. Some information will be straight forward and just jump right out: for instance, Dreadnaught Assault cannon: Cooldown = 0.06 which means it fires 1000 rounds per minute (!!). Even faster than I could estimate. Other data will be quite tricky to interpret. Each weapon has PAGES and PAGES worth of code...not the simple one liners from the days of Quake. For example: let's look at the Melta on the Dreadnought. This describes the weapons fall-off: damage_fall_off Table fall_off_entry Table distance Float 8 damage_multiplier Float 1 fall_off_entry Table distance Float 12.5 damage_multiplier Float 0.5 fall_off_entry Table distance Float 25 damage_multiplier Float 0.15 In short.... there's a lot of work before I can pull some of the info out. =P Dlatrex (talk) 18:45, January 20, 2014 (UTC) Yeah, so this is the link that got me started http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?262715-REF-Majic-s-Guide-To-Space-Marine-Game-Attributes Basically it went like this #1 find Steam\SteamApps\common\Warhammer 40,000 Space Marine\data\packages #2 Find the package: Wargear.oppc (this is like a zip file) #3 Create new folder/ copy file into it. (just so I don't muddle the games' system) #4 Extract to NEW folder ("Using Santos' Space Marine Tool (smoppc.exe), you can extract files from these packages. It is a command-line tool, but if all you need to do is extract files, you can simply drag the OPPC file you want to unpack and drop it on the smoppc.exe icon.") #5 Go into new folder, all of the files have popped out as ATTR_PC format. #6 Use Copernicus' BAF <-> XML converter to convert the ATTR_PC files into XML files (into ANOTHER new directory!) #7 Open using Notepad++ #8 Cry, as you see the miles and miles of code in the raw So that link at the top had links to all of the little extractor/reader programs, but basically I just needed the SMOPPC.EXE, the Copernicus' BAF <-> XML converter, and then Notepad++ which I really recommend. Doesn't take very long once you download everything. That one wargear folder has 683 distinct wargears in it!!!! It's hard to figure out what corresponds to what in game, but the ones that are like CSM_MP_Lascannont, seem to be the multiplayer weapons. Let me know if you try it! Dlatrex (talk) 21:14, January 23, 2014 (UTC) Hahaha. Good luck. I've updated the pages that I could with data I could confirm corresponded to the actual results we were seeing in game. Most are minor changes to rate of fire, or actual damage done. Some definetly have ArmorOnly damage as a second distinct damage. That said there are a TON of different modifiers depending on if the target is, light, heavy, tough, headshot. etc. There is a whole lot of variability in what the actual damage is compared to the raw damage expected of the weapon. =P The melee weapons are VERY confusing, because you have all of the interrupt attacks, glancing blows, and multiple hits included in the same block of code. I would not recommend starting there to figure out what's going on. Looking at the bolter, and seeing the Kraken rounds is a decent way to figure out how the code is written and then what to expect for future guns. Dlatrex (talk) 17:20, January 28, 2014 (UTC)